strange tutorial behaviour and content thread

now, don’t read this thread wrong, FrameLib’s tutorials is an essential element of the learning curve made a little smoother and well done. I have a few glitch problems with it and here there are, you can probably fix them easily.

  • navigation: the tutorial tab on the main framelib extra page, is good, with the levels and stuff. but then when one is selected a new page pops up, and the tutorial navigation pane on the left is a pain, spawning new pages even when one is opened! For instance, click on tutorial 1 4 times and you have 4 versions of it!

  • tutorial 2 tab 3 (advanced gran) does not work at all

that’s it for now. the fact that we cannot get the /params in the help nor reference is also quite annoying but next time I decide to try to re-learn it, I will print my own cheat sheet or maybe I’ll get used to scroll in the helpfiles first tab. I just wished they had autocompletion but I presume that is beyond your control.

Congrats again for the substential release.

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This is impossible to my knowledge. Max ref system only parses a certain subset of information you provide it. Anything outside the scope of that is ignored and you can’t make it know these things.

I will have a look

So you don’t want this sidebar?

What would be your desired user behaviour for this sidebar if it remains? I’m not sure if its possible to make it only spawn a single copy of a patcher. There is the onecopy object but that is for making patchers loaded from the Extras menu only load once. Perhaps has some idea about how to do this in your experience packaging things for Max?

it can exist (and could be smaller) but at least each patch should have only a copy (check [onecopy]) to help you with this task.

maybe, but there are impossible things that were implemented by my friend in the MaxHelper as a javascript background (many to many auto connection for instance) so that approach could be explored maybe

Who is this mystical friend?

As I said onecopy only responds to patches loaded by the extras menu

Nathanaël Lecaudé

again JS could help there. has clever tricks that way.

I didn’t have any clever tricks for this, but a quick look at the pcontrol reference points towards using loadunique instead of load, which seems to work.

As for autocomplete, I don’t know of a way of making this work without .maxref XML files, and (moreover) it only knows about messages and max attributes (so couldn’t harvest Framelib parameters, which are their own thing).

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hi james.

i have to agree with pa that the tutorials are extremely difficult to understand / navigate. note, the tutorials themselves are fantastic, but discoverability, ux, ui, pedagogy all need some work in my opinion.

the current menu is problematic because there is no visual representation of state or history. i must admit, i spent a very long time with it all a couple of weeks ago before i realised what was happening - i.e., i ended up opening endless ‘new windows’ believing each one had many more tutorials in it, then thinking it was odd that i kept coming across the same types of tabs again and again. of course i am stupid, but you have to remember that everyone is stupid.

some basic quick changes which could help matters:

do not name the tutorials simply “Tutorial X” etc - have a little explanation in the title - basically the hover over annotation at the bottom doesn’t work here, should be in the button name; this will orientate the user better.

when one clicks on a tutorial button to open it, that clicked-on button must appear as highlighted, ‘current’ whilst open, i.e., feedback that yes, i have clicked this an now i am here.

however, i think really some bigger changes are needed. the whole tutorials and all the information is so huge and difficult to navigate, the user needs to have their hand held through the process. the example i can think of is the bach tutorials which are of a similar scope. when i go through those tutorials i am never ever in doubt as to which subject matter tutorial i am currently in, and in which section of it i currently am; and it is all just patch/window layout
Sadly, david zicarelli destroyed the usefulness of tabs with his max 7 rewrite, and in my experience, users simply do not notice them outside of a helpfile context, even experienced users. i think bach solves this.

I feel your pain on the max ref pages. the only way framelib params could be recognised is to create custom xml codes and somehow make new types, and then hope that the max ref system node js would then respect that. so i think that is a lost cause.

There is a lovely manuel poletti trick i have somewhere for faking the whole [onecopy] thing outside of the extras folder. i’ll dig it out for you if you want.

As i said, the body of documentation work in framelib is outdone only by the body of alex’s objects. it would just be a shame to not more clearly guide a new user to the relevant parts to find a way into it all.

pete .

simple bug, i think this is the granulation that pa said was not working. annotated image is attached to explain, but basically the buffername is not set correctly. i test modified it and it all works perfectly when buffername same.
pete .

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extars menu patch:

the cable has disappeared between links tab and links patch, so it does not work.

image attached.

i do love these sort of little bugs :slight_smile:


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This is all great stuff Pete. I think that most if not all my time for the next few months will go into my write-up so I won’t have the capacity to address this right now but its good to have it here as record so that it can be acted on. I do really appreciate the UX/UI feedback especially as a) i’m not great at and b) its hard to be critical from that objective perspective while also being immersed in the job.

and yes a sneaky onecopy trick would be VERY appreciated. God I hate the default behaviour of opening as many blood patches as possible

Some quick comments.

@hello.pdowling - the comments on details are very much appreciated. I believe that I’ve fixed the tutorial buffer name bug already some time ago, but I need to check it is the right one (Correct tutorial buffer name · AlexHarker/FrameLib@ae2a4c3 · GitHub). I (or possibly James) will look at the others over time.

In terms of the more general comments I’'d just say that specific focussed comments are more likely to create change than x, y, z, w… all need improving. Such comments can be a bit demoralising, and they seem a bit exaggerated. I only got involved with the tutorials quite late on, but I have never had issues with navigation, other than the multiple versions opening issue which I had noted, but isn’t fixed with onecopy - that will definitely be addressed if we can do so easily (along with any bugs), but some other “issues” are more a matter of opinion. There a very low chance we’ll move away from tabs - sorry but that’s too big a job and that’s not the sort of change I’d endorse based on one user.

@tremblap - Thanks for your notes also. In regards to parameters are you aware that you get the data on the full reference pages?

Don’t beat yourself. It is incredibly hard to remember not knowing something, and looking at it with new eyes. This is why producers (and PhD mentors and workshop leaders) are sometimes key: they are professionally able to articulate their first impression :smiley:

yes but I might as well print a paper copy. there are so many and so many are so long that for 2nd language English speakers, they interrupt the flow (until I use FrameLib 10h/day for weeks, which will not happen for a beginner…)

nah. You forget the frustration of things not working. I think that they are quite moderated actually, with quite a lot of empathy for the hard work already there, explicitely acknoledged. Let me point you at some of @Rodrigo on the other forum if you want to see the full wrath of an expecting user :smiley:


i attach the funny little poletti system. simple really :slight_smile:
looks like i made in in 2010. oomph!
pete .

OneCopySystem.maxpat (14.1 KB)


yeah of course my comments were supposed to be enthusiastic, not demoralising.
it’s a question of (bad) ways of communicating on forums late at night.

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@tremblap - to clarify those comments were very definitely to Pete (who of course I communicate lots with in other contexts, so we have a back history there of types of communication and disagreement) - let’s not make it a competition of who has had the most challenging feedback :wink: My main point is simply that the more focused the sugegestions issues the more likely something changes (I wasn’t really sure what outside of ui/ux/pedagogy was left that might have been got right).

Anyway, both PA and Pete we do appreciate you spending time looking at these. I have just updated the tutorial navigation to use loadunique and that fixes what I consider to be the main issue (you then also can’t open the tutorial you are in again, but a highlight might be nice or to grey that one out). After that I notice that each tutorial doesn’t have a prominent number in the patch, so that might be something to look at - we definitely agree that clarity is desirable, but it’s a case of how can we get there efficiently from where we are now. The links patch cord bug is now also fixed on main on GitHub.

ok. I’ll cry alone in my little corner :heart: